SOTM 51: Home Sales Surge Thanks to Record-Low Rates with Pat Hiban

July 2, 2020
While many businesses are struggling due to COVID-19 restrictions, the real estate sector is, for the most part, still running strong. On today’s State of the Market podcast with Pat Hiban, we discuss how record-low rates have sparked a surge in home sales and created wider margins for lenders. We also cover a class-action lawsuit brought against Matterport, the industry leader in 3D virtual tours. Plus, we share how asking for mortgage forbearance can negatively impact your credit report.
SOTM Listen to today’s show and learn:
  • COVID-19’s impact on Airbnb [2:41]
  • Home sales surge with record-low rates [5:53]
  • Consumers’ response to coronavirus [9:20]
  • Lenders’ margins widen despite tighter loan requirements [12:45]
  • The real racial problems in real estate [18:27]
  • Matterport faces class-action lawsuit [21:56]
  • Why lawsuits could soon skyrocket [24:30]
  • How asking for forbearance can hurt your credit [29:21]
  • How to break through your goals.
  • Plus so much more.
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Aaron: Rockstar Nation, this is Aaron Amuchastegui. I am back with everybody’s favorite host, Pat Hiban, for State of the Market, to catch up and see what is going on. Today’s the last day of June. What a wild second quarter of 2020 it’s been. When we think about news, as we try to share the news, think about this, all the craziness that we’re living in right now started like 100 days ago.

Pat: St. Patrick’s Day, is what I remember.

Aaron: Four or five months ago, Pat, you and I were on here in early February. We were reading a headline about, could Coronavirus cause any damage? We were reading that article and this was a month before it hit the US.

Pat: Yes. We thought it was going to– We thought the worst. We thought that companies were going to be shutting down.

Aaron: Even the time when we talked about it, we were like, “This could be a big deal.” We don’t think enough people talking about it and it could be a big deal. Even though we were thinking– the funny thing is we were thinking it was detrimental and it was the worst, but I didn’t think it was going to get this bad. I thought it was going to be horrible but I didn’t think it was going to be like this big of a shutdown on stuff.

Pat: Everybody guessed, or not, that the businesses that got hurt the most was hospitality, and then other businesses that you thought would get hurt have actually accelerated. Luckily for us, a lot of the real estate businesses are accelerating and amplified, busier than ever.

Aaron: That’s even a couple of things we’re going to talk about in the news today, but everywhere that we’re hearing from all the agents out there, people are busy. People are doing a lot of deals out there, people are buying and selling houses for a variety of reasons. I know that when this thing started too I thought my two Airbnb properties I was going to have to sell them. I was like, “Oh my, I just lost all my Airbnb bookings, I’m screwed.” It turns out a couple of months into quarantine, people prefer Airbnb over hotels. Now I’m fully booked out again. It’s tough to predict how crisis will impact the market.

Pat: It is weird. I talked to a guy last night that’s like his Airbnb’s, he’s had to drop the price on them, 50%. He said just because people are negotiating it’s kind of an odd thing, but if you have an Airbnb in a rustic setting, like in the woods or on a mountain, they’re sold out. These lake homes and stuff are sold out, people paying full price or more. Other places, like if you’re downtown Boston or New York City or whatever, or a lot of places in between, you’re dropping prices in half to try to rent the damn thing out.

Aaron: When it first started in May, beginning of May I was like, “All my weddings are canceled,” and I was like, “I’m going to have to sell these houses.” I dropped my price down like a third just out of desperation. Then I started to get some bookings, and then by mid-May, end of May, people started to want to travel. Both of my Airbnb are– one of them is a rustic in the woods in Oregon, and then one of them is a big property in California that has a fishing pond and alpacas. It’s a place where people can go like, “The pools are closed at the hotel but I’m going to come to your house and swim in the pool.”

I am getting a lot of questions though from people saying, what are you doing to clean these units in between. You know a company that’s actually cleaning Airbnbs? Didn’t I see you post something online about the sanitation business?

Pat: Yes. There’s a company that I invested in early on, nine years ago, and I still own stock in that uses that uses that. It’s called Tomi, T-O-M-I. They have a solution, that is a clean– it’s non-toxic, no ammonia. I won’t get caught in the details but it kills all germs. They’re doing a lot of Airbnbs, they’re doing a lot of office buildings. They’re using more of this product in the last month than they have in the last year or so.

Aaron: I bet. It turns out that nine years invested in a company maybe you’re going to see that thing booming now.

Pat: I’m learning patience. That’s the theme this year, and theme I think for all of us, is just patience.

Aaron: I wish I would have held on to my stocks.

I sold some stocks out of fear and now it’s like, oh, I guess.

Pat: I did the same thing. I cleared out but I still think it’s going to drop back down, at least I’m telling myself that.

Aaron: That’s how I sleep at night.

Aaron: As we get started with the news, in general right now there’s a lot of crisis and crazy stuff going on in the world, and there’s a lot of, those riots. There’s all sorts of good and bad but there is some good real estate news out there. One of these articles from Bloomberg says, “The US new home sales surge with buyers returning to market.” This just came out a week ago, and it just said, “New home sales in the US rose more than expected in May with record-low mortgage rates pulling buyers back into a housing market that froze up during the pandemic. Purchases of single-family houses climbed 16%, the second-largest monthly advance since 1992.” What do you think, Pat? I guess that makes sense?

Pat: It makes a lot of sense, but I would have never predicted it. It doesn’t make sense because you would think– I originally thought two things where I was proven wrong. I thought that people are going to be like, “Let me get rid of this Airbnb because I don’t want to have this rental or whatever. Let me get rid of this piece of real estate in case I need money.”

Number two, “Now’s not a good time to move because we might lose our jobs.” The opposite has happened, the rates have gotten so low. Inventory was already on the decline but now inventory is virtually non-existent. Every agent I talk to, and I talk to many agents every week as you do, is just running around with a chicken with their head cut off. They’re just in crazy, crazy good markets. It’s just hilarious. These brokerages, a lot of the brokerages got the PPP money and EIDL money and they all got a couple of hundred, a million buck, whatever and had their best June ever.

Again, just as we were talking about with the Airbnb’s, not to say that there are real estate companies and real estate agents in certain areas, and I’m sure there’s ones listening, that are sucking wind right now, are down significantly. The theme that I’m hearing when I talk to the agents on the ground, they’re like the agents that are hustling, are killing it. The agents that are slackers aren’t selling anything.

Aaron: Anytime inventory goes down, you have to work so much harder, the agents just have to work so much harder. You have to find deals, you have to actually find somebody– that’s when the agents start writing letters and saying, “Hey, I have a buyer that wants to buy a house in your neighborhood, do you want to sell it to them?”

Pat: Knock on doors.

Aaron: The old, you do have to hustle to create inventory whenever inventory is low that people want to buy. Even part of that articles that the record low-interest rates that put new homes within reach of more buyers. I think new homes too, it’s easier to get a lower rate because so many of those builders actually have their own buydown programs and things like that. They give extra concessions for people to buy down loans if they need to. Which it’s already like, “I don’t know what you buy at 3% loan down two or 2.5% loan down to.”

Pat: There’s the thing, let’s talk about the psychological effect of it or aspects of it, which is what I always love looking at. I know personally, I’ve I built a gym in my house, I bought all this gym equipment. We’re doing all these projects, build a bathroom. Every contractor I talk about is busy as hell. I don’t think you could find a legitimate contractor today that’s not running crazy.

I think it’s because number one, people have a lot more money. I know I have a ton more money just because I haven’t been going out to eat, I haven’t been going out drinking, I haven’t been going on vacation. I’m saving tons of money and it makes me want to spend money. Also, I used to get endorphin and dopamine hits by doing stuff like going out, traveling, planning parties by planning events, doing things. I think we all did.

Even if it’s a play date with the kids, you looked forward to it, and all of a sudden, you don’t have anything to look forward to. Then to scratch that itch so you get a dopamine hit, you buy stuff. You buy things and it feels good. I think that’s what people are doing. They’re buying home improvements, but they’re also just buying houses. They’re like, “Why not just buy a house?”

It just makes sense, and it’s fun to do. I also think people are rethinking their situation. They’re like, “I don’t know if this condo makes sense anymore. It drove me crazy. I’d like to get a house with a yard. I can get a house with a yard for the same payment?” I think you have some that psychological effect too.

Aaron: It’s such a great point with the dopamine hit part of it. Because you’re right. I’ve got four kids, my wife and I are used to traveling like two weeks a month. We fly to the crazy, and it is expensive to fly four kids across the world. We’re used to having a couple of those a month and now we have none, money does save up. Then you’re like, “How are you going to fill that?”

I think you’re right, people do– It’s home improvements, it’s fun stuff, it’s random shopping again. There’s all sorts of other things that are out there. Then as people look at their houses, the house is a different asset now. It has always been the most important asset class, but I tell you what, when you have to spend 75% of your time in your house, or when you have that fear that we might get locked down periodically and have to spend all day in our house every day.

Like right now, at least we can go out and do stuff. We can wear a mask and we can go shopping, but there was even a time at the beginning where it was like, you couldn’t even do that. Houses are more important. People are like, hey, they’re upgrading. “If I’m going to be in my house all the time–” The contractors are super busy. We’ve been getting our refrigerator repaired, it’s been a brutal thing.

Every time they show up they’re like, “Hey, we’ve been–“

Pat: Just buy a new one.

Aaron: We had today. They’ve had 10 jobs every day because people are in their house and they actually now have, and they said they now have the time to be there for the appointments. They used to have the toughest time scheduling appointments. People wouldn’t schedule a repair because they couldn’t be home, they could only be on the weekends. Now people can do it every day.

Part of that, another article that you had, and I have actually started doing a little bit of research on, was another one from Bloomberg that says, “Mortgage lenders make hay with loan spreads.” It says the loan spreads are the wildest since 2008. Before you guys just take that as fact on there, as you read the article it says, “Unemployment is high, credit is tight, but interest rates are super low.”

They have some lenders on here talking about making three times as much profit as they did in the second quarter, in the year in these. One of the quotes says, “The margins and the origination business are some of the widest margins we’ve seen in years.” I don’t think that’s how– lending I think, used to work like that, and maybe there are some cases where it works like that. Isn’t it more, it’s now it’s about getting paid points like you reach some lenders.

Pat: It’s fake news. I was upset at Bloomberg for not putting a paragraph in here that explained, “Our intent of this article is not to say that loan officers per se are overcharging or getting greedy and charging more than they normally do.” They left that part out. By more profit, better margins, that’s all because they have systems in place and they’re doing more loans on top of the existing systems so their profit is higher.

It has nothing to do with what suddenly– It’s not like Trump has loosened the Dodd-Frank regulations and now lenders are allowed to overcharge. I used to own a mortgage company and one of the things that we did to attract mortgage officers was pay them 35% of whatever they could get. If they get $100,000 loan, if they could get three points, then they get $1,000, whatever, $1,150, and that was a lot.

Then before that, it was you get a half a point. You get $100,000 loan, you get $500, that’s all you could make, but then it’s 2008. As the bubble happened, it became looser, and looser then after the bubble they tightened it back up. I don’t believe that it’s loosened again. A couple of lenders I talked to said that they actually making less per loan. In anticipation for this, I texted a lender that I’ve known for 30 years and I basically said, “Have restrictions loosened, how much of a profit are you allowed to make?”

He said no, period. It is a flat percentage on all loans, no shortages, no overages. Now in overages, let’s say I quote Aaron Amuchastegui and his family 2.5% with one point, and then I let it ride and the next day it goes down to 2.5% to half a point, guess what? I get to keep that half a point because you agreed to the 1. Does that make sense? That’s called an overage.

Aaron: You said there’s no overages.

Pat: There’s no overheads. If that happens, I got to tell you, I got to be dropped 0.5% here, take it back. No shortages, no averages, all loans are paid at the same commission rate no matter the type of loan. Then I sent him the article and he says, “Partially true. Underwriters in processes are making more, but they’re making more because we’re doing more to loan.”

Loan officers are making more, but they’re also making more because they’re doing more to loan. The company is making less per loans, but more overall, because of the volume. That’s the real news right there. Also, real estate companies are killing it too. A lot of companies are– Zoom is killing it. There’s a lot of companies that are killing it that you could write an article about, type of businesses that are going crazy with the Cheese Whiz on profit.

Aaron: It’s an important distinction that you made because the headline of that article made it sound like, “Hey, they’re making a bunch of profit on it. They’re making way more. They’re working less, but making more, they’re gouging consumers.” That’s the impression that I got by the headline and the reality is they’re doing a lot more deals, they’re working a lot harder.

In the big stores, that was back when the first crisis happened, the lenders on there were talking about like, “Oh, and if this guy, if they can’t speak English, I’m going to add an extra couple points.” That was the loans that really got cranked down after the crisis. You’re no longer allowed to just–

Pat: Wells Fargo and a bunch of people, cities,

Aaron: So many people got in trouble. When you read, as you look at those news, everybody out there, being able to make sure that you get to listen to it. If you see articles like that that seem wild, send them in, to us, email them in, to us. We want to be able to listen to him talk about it on the news and see if we can learn something else. Because again, when I saw that headline, it was like, “They’re gouging prices and the reality is no. Lenders are making more profit right now, but they are working really, really hard. It’s probably not all the lenders, but the ones that are doing the deals. It’s an important to hit that distinction.

Aaron: Quick article that I wanted to put out there. We’ve talked a lot about race the last few weeks, really the last time just goes by. I don’t remember what day it is or where, but maybe it’s a month now. Last week the Houston Association of Realtors they said on the MLS now there’s no longer going to use the word master bedroom, and it is going to be called primary bedroom because they thought that it was a fake term.

There’s been a lot of stuff on the internet of people taking different sides on that, but Inman put the article on here. It was an opinion from an agent that said John Legend said to the Houston Association Realtors, “Fix the real problem.” The real problem, realtors don’t show black people all the properties they qualify for, fake problem, calling the master bedroom the master bedroom, fix the real problem.

I just wanted to share this as a news piece. I don’t have any experience with what they’re talking about with that but I do agree that when people are trying to– I think people need to fix the real problem. There’s a lot of stuff happening in the news right now of people making adjustments and I admire everyone for trying to fix the problem but fixing the real problem. Didn’t have much to say about that other than sharing the news.

Pat: He’s right, you have to fix the real problem. They obviously, the Houston Association of Realtors, if they haven’t implemented any new policies or done something on the level of fixing the real problem, making sure agents get fired. Make sure agents understand, and maybe the tightening the rules so that it’s easier to lose your license, increasing the education of realtors, there’s a lot of things that could be done.

Whether that’s the right thing to do, I’m indifferent to it. It doesn’t bother me, whatever. It’s like, “We’ll call it something else.” I think it’s not for me to say. If someone’s offended by that then– I don’t know really if anyone was ever offended by people probably never really thought about it till now, but at the same time, people are offended by the confederate statues and taking those down. If someone really is offended by it, then change it, but I’m white so I can’t say that I was offended by it. So I’m indifferent.

Aaron: It’s like we don’t really have a right to have the right opinion on that. I just want to share that as news because it’s such an interesting world that we’re living in and is directly real estate-related that impacts MLS and other things. Even more so, it’s interesting to just see John Legend addressing it and seeing everybody– More continuous discussion as they try to solve problems is what people need in the– I like the idea of just reminding people like, “Hey, there’s a lot of ways to fix things but let’s try. If you’re going to try to fix things, go deep, do policy change, make big things happen.”

It’s the last article in here that I want to talk about today, which I thought was– This one is really interesting because two months ago we told everybody, “Hey, if you’re going to be an agent right now you have to have a 3D tour. You’ve got to do the Matterport doors. An article that came out says, “Matterport is facing a class-action lawsuit over a lead program.” I was reading through this article.

When Mattereport first started, they would sell somebody this camera and this system and they would say, “Hey, we’re going to give you the camera for $10,000, you’re going to pay a monthly fee, and then we’re going to send you all these people that are going to then hire you to go take the Matterport pictures.” Then I think the person could charge their own fee. They could say, “Every time they do an inspection, they charge $300 or $500.”

It was almost like selling im a franchise. Like, “Hey, we’ll sell you a Matterport franchise. The Matterport is this camera technology that does amazing 3D scan pictures. We can walk through the house and it does this whole 3D dimension thing, it’s super cool. When they did that, the argument that this guy’s making is saying, “They did that.” They sold me the camera, they sold me the subscription, I started doing all that but they also did it to everybody else in my neighborhood and everybody else in my area.

They didn’t just give it to one person in Dallas or two people in Dallas, they tried to sell it to a ton of people in Dallas.”

Instead of giving them leads and saying, “Hey, we’re going to give you this technology and we’re going to send you leads, they got so many people to sign up for it. To me, it’s like overselling a franchise. If there was four McDonald’s on the same street, they just wouldn’t get the same revenue as if there’s one. Have you heard much about that, anybody that’s been heavily invested in Matterport?

Pat: No. I can’t say that I have. I wasn’t aware of how that whole system worked, so I really can’t speak on that.

Aaron: It’s an interesting time with just how deep it is for– How important virtual tours are. There’s more and more of them out them out there, more companies trying it. There’s a lot of little camera that people can do but so much of it is their technology with that. I think it could be problematic for them. It’s probably a lawsuit that maybe they will settle and get out there because it doesn’t– When you tell somebody that you’re going to send them leads as part of a purchase, that can be problematic.

Pat: I just wonder if what we’re dealing with COVID and everything else if just lawsuits in general are just going to skyrocket?

Aaron: Anytime there’s big economic disparity, lawsuits skyrocket. Like you said, there’s plenty of businesses right now, they’re doing great, there’s plenty of agents right now they’re doing great. There’s also plenty of people out there that are really, really suffering and really, really struggling, and staying at home is a really hard difficult thing for them. Whenever there’s anguish, I think there’s more lawsuits, I think there’s more blame, and risk of doing business. I wonder have you seen anything in the news about– Right now some people have been worried about the opening because they don’t want to be sued for potentially giving somebody COVID.

Pat: That’s the thing. It’s, you know this.

Aaron: You think they’re going to make a law that says you can’t sue somebody for getting you sick for being liable? Because that’s for some.

Pat: How are you supposed to– I understand, I just don’t see it. Maybe if you knew you had it and you purposely coughed on someone and they died, they could– There might be some form of manslaughter or something, but I just don’t know how you could sue from damages for getting sick because everybody gets– You get the germs, those are everywhere dude.

Aaron: Restaurants and movie theaters in Austin. The Austin’s going to open for a couple of months, and when it first opened we got to go to restaurants. Right now they just made masks mandatory again last week. One of the exceptions is while you’re eating, but when you’re walking through the restaurant you need to wear it. I went to a burger place last night with my family, we’re outside and we’re eating.

They called me over the front and I go and get some– they asked for ketchup or something like that, and my mask was down, and they were like, “You have to put that back up. You have to put that back up to talk to us.” They were worried about getting fined. I think they had set up– the city is saying, “Hey, we’re going to fine people $1,000 per occurrence.” Or maybe you’re going to have somebody taking a picture and being like, “Hey, look there’s a guy in the store not wearing a mask endangering me.” It’s just a weird time.

Pat: It’s a weird time but I think the city has the right actually to do that when you think about it because this or the jurisdiction. Because they’re the ones that deal with the hospital beds. If you are rich enough that you have your own hospital and you have your own hospital bed and you can have your own doctor and ventilator and all that crap, then, Okay. Well, go ahead, don’t wear a mask.”

If the city’s the one that has to deal with the– They’re talking now like there’s not enough beds in Phoenix Arizona, one more day and they’re going to be out of beds or something crazy like that. If you got to deal with that, then you should be as a government, I believe, be able to say okay.

Aaron: It isn’t that weird?

Pat: I got to take care of your problem because you’re sick. I got to, I don’t know.

Aaron: Running out of beds was the first real worry. That was the whole reason we all went because they said, “Hey, we’re going to run out of beds.” So we got to do this two-week quarantine thing and then if one of those locations actually does run out of beds now, then you go like, “When do we get to go back outside? When will life get to be somewhat– When do I get to go to Disneyland?”

Like I said, my family is eager to travel, eager to go get out in the world. Our business is doing fine or doing well, there’s waitlists for our houses for rent because of the housing shortage. We have people staying in hotels asking how soon they can move into one of our houses. Business is good, but man when will life get to be somewhat like it was especially if we run out of beds.

If somewhere runs out of beds now, 100 days into this, again it was right now end of the quarter. The second-quarter of 2020 will be remembered as the craziest quarter ever. I hope that the third quarter of 2020 doesn’t get added to that list.

Pat: I don’t know, man. It’s crazy. Again, I was talking to a lender going back to mortgage loans and they’re like, “People are rushing in to get to refinance and stuff,” and he’s like, “There’s nowhere else, these rates are going to stay the same because COVID is probably going to come back.” They go, “As it is, the government’s not going to do anything drastic to jack up rates. They’re going to do whatever they can to make sure that we’re back on track before rates start rising.

Aaron: I think rates stay down and I think it’s harder to get a loan. I’ve had people calling, lenders calling us like three or four times during the loan process for employees, and just saying, “Hey, do they still work for you?” They’ve been approved for six weeks, we’re getting ready closed tomorrow, we just need to ask you do they still work for you?

Pat: It’s interesting, someone told me this yesterday, someone we both know well. They applied for forbearance on their mortgage in March when this all was going on. It’s like the 10 things that you got to do, apply for this, do this. They applied for a forbearance, they got a forbearance, which means their mortgage company said, “You don’t have to pay us for 90 days.” Everything was fine and they didn’t lose any money, so they paid the mortgage anyways. They’re like, “I’m just going to pay it because I don’t want to owe it.” The other day it showed up on their credit report digging their credit, even though they were–

Aaron: Just for asking for it.

Pat: Even though they didn’t use it because it was Bank of America by the way. Because they got approved for it, and Bank of America gave it to them, but they didn’t use it. It’s like getting approved for a loan but just paying it off the same day or just not, I don’t know, not taking a line of credit even though you have it. Their credit report and I don’t think anybody really expected that.

I also I heard of someone else that you and I know through GoBundance that is refinancing their house, and they got the EIDL loan and it showed up on their credit report as a long-term debt. Let’s say it’s $100,000. Even though you got 30 years to pay it back, it still shows that you owe somebody $100,000. Even though it’s a low-interest rate, even though it’s a low payment, even though whatever, it’s showing up under his personal name because he applied for it with his company.

Aaron: What a trip? If you apply for forbearance and you don’t use it, and it dings your credit report, that is shocking to me. One of those fine print things, and it’ll be interesting to see how that might play out over the next three to six months to nine months. EIDL loan, if it’s one of the forgivable ones, and I think that maybe it doesn’t affect it if it’s a none forget it.

That one’s a more gray area but I didn’t think that those were going to– I did not think, when they were first time up people doing that, they said, “Hey this won’t hit your credit. This won’t be this.” It’ll be interesting.

Pat: It’s a credit, actually affecting him, he can’t refinance.

Aaron: Yes, that’s crazy. Because then he’d be like, “I wouldn’t have done that. I wouldn’t have said that.” Be careful when we’re out there trying to figure it out. The first two weeks of this thing we were all in such a panic. I fire sold so many things that in hindsight I’m like, “Maybe I should have kept that.” You know what–

Pat: Same thing. I fire-sold two houses thinking I better sell them now in case I can’t. I wouldn’t say I fire-sold them but in hindsight, it’s like the stocks. Like, “Damn, I shouldn’t have sold all my stocks, it’s the same thing,” but really sold them in the eighth inning or nine inning. It’s not like we sold them in the first inning and been like, “Damn.”

Aaron: We didn’t give it all away.To close this thing out, if I was going to summarize again the second quarter of 2020, I’d say when it started out there was a lot of panics. Right now I feel a lot of hope with a lot of economic outlook, understanding that a lot of people are having to pivot and struggle and change businesses but it’s also hasn’t impacted, at this point, has not impacted the economy as much or as negatively as I thought it would.

I also want to caveat that with, and maybe you’ll have a correction with the jury’s still out, we’re still yet to see a lot of the different things that the next three to six months, other impacts that might happen. Right now I would say it’s turning out better than expected but still don’t know about the long term. What’s your final thought on that, Pat?

Pat: The jury’s not out. If you have an opportunity, if you’re thinking about refinancing or you’re thinking about eventually buying and you feel secure about your job, it’s a great time to lock into a crazy rate for 30 years. Think about how old you are now and add 30 years of that, that’s when that sucker will be due. That’s insane that we’re going to have this opportunity.

I think we’re going to look back on 2020 as a year of opportunities. As agents too, as agents this is an opportunity to make hay when the sun shines. Like the article about the lenders, sell as many houses as you can, be aggressive as you can, work as hard as you can just in case. Just in case you go a couple of months next year without any commissions.

Aaron: Work hard while we can and do it in the– Pat, if people want to find you, they can find you on Instagram, on a Facebook, Tribe of Millionaires is your big book. Over at GoBundance, you guys have been just growing that thing like crazy right now. Any final ways that people should get a hold of you or things they should be looking?

Pat: No. They can get a free book, It’s our new hot book, it’s selling like crazy. You can buy it on Amazon for $20 or you get it for free at Go on get it for free, all you got to do is pay the shipping. If you don’t know what GoBundance is, you can go to It’s a business group for businessmen, and we also have a women’s division but we separate the sexes.

We thought we were going to have a big fallout of people quitting, and we actually have members joining every week. Because business people want to talk to each other now about how to weather the storm, and it’s interesting.

Aaron: That’s really for everybody out there. Join a mastermind. When times get tough, that’s the time to get in foxholes with other people. I remember when it first started we didn’t know if a lot of people were going to be canceling their GoBundance memberships. More people are signing up. You and I were supposed to be going to Australia next month with GoBundance. That trip got canceled because they will not let anybody in the country, but next year we get to go back.

Pat: Now we’re supposed to go to Steamboat Springs, and hopefully, we still will with limited capacity, but who knows?

Aaron: Get to do some summer travels. GoBundance. Go check out Pat’s book, go check out GoBundance. Real Estate Rockstars, thank you for listening. Pat, thanks for coming back on and we will talk [crosstalk] some more in a few days. Thanks.

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